Cross-Party Group on Deaf Issues

Mark Isherwood MS (Chair)

Dr Rob Wilks (Secretary)

Adam Howls (WITS)

Alison Bryan

Cath Booth (WCDP)

Dawn Sommerlad (COS)

Dr Julia Terry (Swansea University)

John Day

Margaret Buchanon

Michelle Fowler (Velindre HB)

Nigel Wiliams (NWSSP)

Polly Winn (RNID)

Rebecca Mansell (BDA)

Sarah Thomas (COS)

Sonia Thomas (Llais)

Stuart Parkinson

Tom Lichy (BDA)

Tony Evans

Victoria Bishop‑Rowe (Auditory Verbal UK)

Mark Davies

Julie Doyle

Sam Hopkins

Hilary McLean

Speaker Series #2

Dr Christopher Shank, Bangor University

Dr Anouschka Foltz, University of Graz, Austria

This talk was cancelled as Dr Christopher Shank and Dr Anouschka Foltz did not attend the meeting.

Approve minutes of Group meeting on 26 October 2023

It was proposed to approve the minutes of the meeting dated 26 October 2023.  Alison Bryan moved to approve the minutes, which was seconded by Julia Terry.  There were no objections.

Action: Secretary to send minutes to Table Office.

Matters arising

1.    Secretary to write a letter to Jane Hutt MS, Minister for Social Justice accordingly, on behalf of the Group regarding Invisibility of Deafblind adults in Wales – COMPLETED AND RESPONSE RECEIVED (circulated).

Margaret Buchanan commented that she was not impressed with the response and that she was aware that the health sector is adding deafblind to a lot of its paperwork but the Minister did not tackle the fact that deafblind people were ignored and she would have liked to have seen a more in-depth response specific to deaf blindness and what they were generally doing that is more concrete so that this information can be passed to the community to confirm that deafblind people are definitely being recognised in Wales as individuals. 

The Secretary agreed with Ms Buchanan and stated that the responses were quite vague.  The Minister did ask for evidence and research the Secretary is happy to forward that to the Minister once received from Ms Buchanan.  But, yes, in his view there wasn't particularly strong response. 

Action: Secretary to send research collated by Ms Buchanan to the Minister for Social Justice.

2.    Secretary to write letter to Senedd Education Committee, WJEC and Qualifications Wales regarding concerns raised re the GCSE BSL – COMPLETED. 

A response has been received from the WJEC this morning which the Chair read out. 

The letter outlines a commitment to develop a dedicated GCSE qualification for Wales in each subject approved by Qualifications Wales. It expresses positivity about the potential for a GCSE in BSL to support teaching and learning in schools. However, it acknowledges challenges such as the identification of skilled teaching staff and the availability of suitable examiners. There are parallel efforts in England by the Department for Education and Ofqual to develop a GCSE in BSL from September 2025, with collaborative discussions involving WJEC. The engagement in Wales focuses on liaising with BSL teaching and assessment experts to better understand the requirements for delivering a GCSE in BSL. The Chair suggests further discussion in the next meeting after members have had a chance to review the complete letter.

The Secretary will circulate the letter to members following the meeting.

Rebecca Mansell, the Chief Executive of the BDA, expressed enthusiasm for the development of the BSL GCSE and emphasised the need for active involvement of the deaf community in its co-design and co-production. She highlighted the deaf community's strong connection to BSL, emphasising the importance of ownership and active participation in the process. Ms Mansell suggested upskilling existing deaf teachers and ensuring that the GCSE is delivered by deaf individuals, while acknowledging the need for suitable hearing individuals with the necessary qualifications.

The Chair raised concerns about the shortage of Teachers of the Deaf in Wales and Ms Buchanan suggested involving parents and community members through a fast-track programme.

Ms Buchanan proposed various pathways to increase the number of BSL teachers, including supporting current deaf teachers to obtain QTS status.

The Secretary discussed his ongoing research and recommendations to increase BSL courses at degree level and engage universities in Wales.

The discussion concluded with the suggestion to capture these insights in a letter to the Education Minister and explored the idea of designated centres for GCSE examinations in each county.

Action: Secretary to circulate WJEC letter to members and put item on next meeting agenda, and to write to Education Minister capturing the above insights.

3.    Secretary to raise concerns regarding commissioning of unqualified unregistered translators for consultations with Welsh Government – COMPLETED AND RESPONSE RECEIVED (circulated).

4.    Secretary to pass on details of contact in Qualifications Wales (QW) to Ms Winn when obtained – NOT YET COMPLETED

The Secretary has not received a response from QW as the letter was sent to a general email address.  Secretary to chase.

Action: Secretary to chase response from QW and pass contact information to Ms Winn.

5.    Secretary to draft letter to Education Minister on behalf of the Group raising the above issues and following up on the Chair’s question in Senedd of 3 May 2023, and response to Dr Wilks’ report – COMPLETED AND RESPONSE RECEIVED (circulated).

6.    Secretary to write to Petitions Committee to support petition on behalf of Group – COMPLETED.

John Day asked whether the NDCS had a response to Actions 5 and 6.  The Secretary confirmed that Hazel Badjie from the NDCS was not present at the meeting today, but he will follow up after the meeting.

All agreed that the Secretary will respond to the Minister once the group’s various responses have been collated.

Action: Secretary to collate responses and reply to Minister for Social Justice.

At this juncture, the Chair confirmed that he has been engaging with the Welsh Government through the chamber, in committee, or by letter, regarding the BSL Charter and the need for a BSL Act in Wales. Expressing frustration with the perceived slow progress, the Chair questioned the current position. Ms Mansell from the BDA apologised for any delays on the BDA’s side, citing organisational changes and the development of a new strategy. She reaffirmed the BDA's commitment to supporting the BSL Act in Wales and mentioned the addition of a Welsh representative to their board. The Chair noted that the Welsh Government seems to prioritise a Wales-specific charter before considering an Act, and he highlighted the need for separate legislation in Wales due to devolution. Ms Buchanan raised the importance of including deafblind people in any legislation, suggesting either inclusion in Wales-specific legislation or a separate deafblind act. The Chair emphasised the need for people, particularly BSL users, to be at the centre of the legislation, highlighting existing legislation such as the Well-being of Future Generations Act, but acknowledging challenges in implementation.

7.    Ms Winn to find out more about the work of the Disability Rights Taskforce and report back to the Group.

Ms Winn clarified the status of various working groups that have been formed under the Disability Rights Taskforce.  A number of working groups have now concluded their work, such as the one on access to services, including communications and technology, whose recommendations will be published for public consultation. A number of working groups are ongoing, including one on children and young people, accessible and affordable housing, access to justice, and a well-being group that she was expecting to join. She encouraged members to express interest in joining these groups and shared that the Welsh Government's Equality Unit would be conducting research based on the working groups’ recommendations.

Ms Buchanan raised concerns about the lack of representation and attention to deaf and deafblind issues in these groups, which Ms Winn acknowledged as a fair point.  Ms Buchanan emphasised the need for better representation in these groups, suggesting that individuals with connections to the deaf community in Wales should apply to participate.

Annual General Meeting

The Chair addressed the requirement for the Annual General Meeting (AGM) of the Group, stating that it should elect its chair and secretary for the following 12 months and produce an Annual Report and accounts within four weeks. However, with no other MSs present, the Chair suggested coordinating with the Secretary to schedule a brief meeting to carry out these functions. The Secretary agreed, and the Chair proposed reaching out to MSs to encourage their attendance. The Chair also suggested a formal letter to the Table Office to notify them of the situation and announce a special AGM for the sole purpose of electing officers for the next 12 months.

The Secretary confirmed that he would send the letter, acknowledging the delay and providing reasons for it. He also mentioned that the last AGM was in November 2022, and so an AGM should have been included in the October meeting, but he hadn’t realised at the time (and in any case, no other MSs attended).

Action: Secretary to contact the Table Office to inform them of delay with convening an AGM and election of Chair and Secretary and submission of annual report and accounts.

Accessible Information Standard Update

Polly Winn, External Affairs Manager for Wales, RNID

This agenda item was missed so will be added to the next meeting agenda.

Action: Secretary to add this item to the next meeting agenda.

Shortage of interpreters

Adam Howls, Manager for the Wales Interpretation and Translation Service

Mr Howls expressed his gratitude for being invited and provided an overview of the situation with regard to the provision of BSL/English Interpreters in Wales by WITS. He highlighted a shortfall of interpreters, especially for emergency and unplanned care, with most requests being pre-planned. There are challenges in finding interpreters with appropriate skills at short notice.

The Chair inquired about the Welsh health boards' preference for booking face-to-face interpreters, and Sarah Thomas shared concerns about the responsibility for booking interpreters lying with health professionals. The issue of staff in the health service lacking knowledge about how to book interpreters was raised, emphasising the importance of deaf awareness training for health staff. Mr Howls mentioned a training programme he was working on to address this issue.

Mr Howls further discussed the 96 percent allocation rate in WITS and agreed to provide a breakdown of the data, detailing which departments in hospitals made interpreter bookings. The Secretary questioned if certain departments might be missing from the list. Ms Winn raised concerns about a disconnect between staff and WITS, leading to uncertainty about interpreter availability. Mr Howls mentioned the Sign Video VRS option was available for patients to inquire about interpreter bookings directly.

Ms Buchanan inquired about interpreters using deafblind manual, expressing concerns about the lack of awareness in the medical profession about the needs of deafblind individuals. Mr Howls acknowledged the low demand for deafblind interpreters but agreed to include deafblind elements in the training programme. Ms Buchanan appreciated the effort and suggested sharing the training module with the group for feedback.

Mr Howls suggested that when the training programme is ready for consultation that he send the materials to the Group for feedback, and that it may well be necessary to have a standard and advanced training programmes.

Action: Mr Howls to pass on information to Secretary for circulation to members at the relevant time.

Ms Fowler raised concerns about deaf individuals receiving appointment letters without clear information on whether an interpreter is booked, causing confusion and uncertainty. She emphasised the importance of including such information in appointment letters to reassure patients. Mr Howls acknowledged the issue, highlighting that the standard letters sent by health boards may not adequately address patients' unique needs. He expressed willingness to discuss this with health boards to potentially influence changes in their templates.

Mr Day suggested exploring data on the uptake of interpreter services over time, comparing BSL to spoken language, and presenting charts or reports for future Group meetings.  Mr Howls confirmed that BSL is consistently among the top three most requested languages. He mentioned the seasonal fluctuations in demand and noted a year-on-year increase in overall demand. Mr Howls also clarified the requirements for interpreters, emphasizing the need for NRCPD registration, full qualification, and suitable experience.

Making complaints about health services

Sonia Thomas, Complaints Advocate, Llais

Ms Thomas expressed gratitude for the invitation and offered to provide a presentation but suggested giving a brief overview. She is a Complaints Advocate for Llais and is responsible for all of Powys. Llais is an independent statutory body set up by the Welsh Government, formerly known as the Community Health Councils. Ms Thomas explained the services they offer, including free, independent, and confidential complaints advocacy for NHS and Social Services treatment. BSL interpreters are accessed through an agreement with NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership.

Ms Thomas discussed the launch of a new website, acknowledging its need for improvement. She mentioned the absence of BSL on the website but noted ongoing efforts to address accessibility issues following an audit. Llais provide support for patients in making complaints, from drafting letters to attending meetings, and seeing the complaint through to the Public Service Ombudsman.

During the Q&A session, Ms Thomas answered questions about the organisation's ability to conduct unannounced visits and addressed a query from Ms Winn about monitoring and tracking implementation issues related to healthcare access.  Ms Thomas confirmed that any raised issues are passed to the Regional Director, who can directly engage with health boards. She offered to forward any concerns about implementation issues to her Regional Director for further action.

Any other business

Mr Day requested a short report from Mr Howls containing figures related to access to BSL/English interpreting services, to share with colleagues. Mr Howls agreed to provide the report and shared his email address for further discussion.

Tony Evans raised concerns about the letter from the Minister for Social Justice, particularly about the Accessible Communications Group that was mentioned in the letter. He inquired if anyone knew who the members of the group were and if they had seen the guidelines for using interpreters and translators. Ms Buchanan stated that she had never seen or been invited to such a group, and Ms Winn mentioned being part of a group without an official name, formed to address compliance issues with All-Wales Standards for Accessible Information Communication. Ms Winn offered to discuss the matter further and shared her email address.